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Wild that for like 150 years, multiple generations, you had plenty of peasants who knew better than to breed horses like that ... but the royals didn't seem to know that was the reason for all their misfortunes. Instead of consulting mystics and priests they should have just asked the nearest ostler. So sad that so many people suffered so horribly.
Trying to compare the nobles' habits and preferences with the breeding of animals would been seen as an insult. You'd risk getting lashed (or worse) for it.
@win zyl They should have done what was spoken of in fairy tales, and gone out searching for beautiful or handsome randos to marry.
Oh they were somewhat aware of the risks of inbreeding later on but at that point there were very few options of "proper" marriages that were not related, and the monetary and political benefits of marrying within the family was too beneficial for them unfortunately. Playing the strategy game Crusader Kings really opened my eyes to why families did that; to keep claims to titles with certain families, land, property etc
@shadowmoon at that time, even my peasant forefathers knew that banging your niece or cousin causes funny babies. The royals were just greedy and hoped for the best. Like a Karen refusing to vaccinate her kid because she heard from a fiend of a friend’s dog’s best mail man that they cause autism.
Bc humans and horses are totally alike and a commoner would certainly be an expert in reprodution. These comments of ppl that have no idea what “context” is kill.
The portraits of the Habsburgs makes me wonder how messed up they really looked. I mean, those portraits were made to flatter so it makes sense they looked way rougher in person. And Charles having a water head?
@JuMiKu as in the Upside Down?
F Goya caused a scandal when he painted Charles V family as they looked. According to my art professor when the king saw it, he wasn’t even mad, he just just admitted his family was ugly
The last Hapsburg actually suffered from what is called "Genetic Collapse"
Back in the day, the woman, or the girl if you prefer, was always to blame. It was a man's world, and still is, so a man was never blamed. Also denial is very very powerful.
@M0bZ0Mb!3 I still can't believe I read some incel's comment the day before, saying it was just a different 'culture' and 'had its upsides'. 🤮
The fact alone that they were so inbred that it took multiple videos to fully explain is absolutely hysterical.
At the end I was like "man, that was some nonsense! " Then she talkin bout, "I'll be back with the other branch." 🤣
I did read once that Charles II was just intelligent enough to know that he was seriously messed up, and that everyone was basically just waiting for him to die. That probably did no favors for him mentally either.
Yeah and why is no one talking about his father's bones and skulls of relatives being dug up and placed in his bedroom😬😬😬
@AWEtistic Yeah I mean they do not "sound weird", they sound weird. There's a guy on the train I took to work who always talks very loud and in a weird tone of voice. He speaks like a retarded child, but he is much more fit mentally. You can have pretty regular conversation with him. Still handicapped, but from the way he speaks you initially assume that he's utterly idiotic.
@Elisa Wilde The sad thing is, I know people living today who have speech impairments and/or visible disabilities that are still judged in the same way. They don't have any cognitive issues, but many automatically assume it because they "sound weird".
A very tragic and painful life.
My three reactions to this video:"She was his third cousin-"Me: Oh, thank god."Remarkably, she was outside the bloodline!"Me: Yes! There we go!"He next married his niece..."Me: NO! NOOOO!These poor damn kids never asked for this nonsense, it's a shame so many of them were too diseased to live, or lived horrible lives.
@Katie Lynn that's true but considering the royals back then dont want to 'taint' their 'pure' blood by marrying peasants, who know how many 3rd cousins basically or at least somewhat have the same genetic makeup considering they only breed with one another 🥲
@Katie Lynnyah!! But More Variation in gene pool Means more genetically superior race, that's how I see things so I prefer a loopless family tree either it's 4rth,5th,...... or xth.If I have chance I would do a intercontinental marriage.😂😂
@Shubhendu Amitabh actually 3rd cousins are generally distant enough for it not to be an issue. The real issue is when those 3rd cousins parents inbreed any closer than that, which I do not believe is the case.
3rd or 1st all are same, for healthy children marry unrelated & non-inbreeded family😅
Exactly. I feel so bad for these people. Even if they ended up becoming terrible people, they still didn't ask to be born, let alone inbred.
when I was a kid i used to think if I could travel back in time, I'd want to be part of a royal family. After seeing this and other videos, being a peasant doesn't seem half bad.
Peasants worked long physically demanding hours for measly wages that could only cover rent. If you survived the plague economically it would be the best thing to happen to you.
@Karami better than being inbred
lol best comment here, to funny!
@CNYKnifeNut And likely works thrice as a medieval peasant. Sure, a medieval peasant wouldn't have any amenities that we today enjoy... but if they lived past theyr teens, it wasn't unlikely to live until 70 (Barring injuries, war drafts or random plagues ) Also, beinga merchant is the best spot to be in a medieval society.
The average modern lower-middle class family has far more luxuries than even the richest medieval royalty.
If we are speculating about medical conditions: Juana may have had a severe case of Borderline disease. It is caused by childhood abuse (and being tortured by her own mother is definitely abuse) and people with this disorder have problems to be separated from people they love (which may have been the cause of her not letting her dead husband being buried).
Apparently she learned, unconsciently, since little that making scandals was the only way for people arround noticing her, so they would eventually come listen to her and doing what she wanted for her to stop. Since she was the youngest kid among many, nobody expected she would be ever in a power position so her parents focused on the older siblings. Many times when she screamed, refused to eat or locked herself somewhere not to travel where she was ordened, for weeks, she might for example ask her mother to come talk her from other part of the country as an ultimatum and Isabella eventually came, make some concesions to her and then she would beheave "normally" again and do what she had to. With time everybody was getting either tired or used to that, so everytime she had to become more "drama queen" for people to react, and then people was eventually trying to calm her less nicely than before. Obviously, at the end this played against her.
@puppiekitI’m pretty sure one of the things with BPD is abandonment issues…
C-PTSD, depression, substance abuse, eating disorders
@Bla Bla I think it's not as easy as that. Women get diagnosed with some diagnoses like borderline and histrionic, which are historically connotated as hysterical, more offen then men. Men with the same symptoms get more likely diagnosed with something else. Even some psychotherapists (at least the one I listened to) acknowledge that.
@Cara H You got diagnosed as mentally ill, and you don't understand why - because you are mentally ill. Its not sexism, it's just you being mentally ill.
The fact that Philip IV married his dead son's ex fiancée is just, I'm sorry, plain disgusting. And also the fact that he was like 40 and she was literally a teenager. Ew.
You have to realise that dyanstic monarchy just operates on different rules. The fact that they marry closely within families and very young, is so they can consolidate wealth and power and produce heirs to inherit said wealth and power. It's all about dyanstic ambitions. Regular degular people with no lands, titles, thrones and kingdoms don't need to worry about that.
based philip lV
@Borley Boo! .... You serious? Like actually serious?
@Borley Boo! if you knew English well enough you'd know what I meant.
How can one be ‘like 40’. Does one look like a number/s.
I absolutely love how you're able to display these family trees so beautifully! Any tips? I'm trying to make a very simple presentation for my 97 grandmother so she has an easier time understanding her tree. She has been become so fascinated with her heritage since I found out that the name of our Native American ancestor back in 2019. Every time I go to visit her, she's always asking for more information, names, pictures, everything. I made a "passable" (in terms of what my computer teachers would say) powerpoint this Thanksgiving, but I would love to be able to learn more on display options.
Fun fact I recently recreated the Spanish Hapsberg tree on the Sims 4 (with a mod that allows family marriage) and it literally broke the genealogy system lolEDIT: after two weeks I have made a video showcasing my efforts kzclip.net/video/i-9WwpGdW_E/бейне.html
This is so clever, I love you for this ❤
I’m doing the same! But in Sims 2. That way, I can have massive families. I’m also doing all the orher major royal houses of Europe from 1066 onwards (the year William the Conqueror conquered England)
@sweet daydreamer You are on KZclip... why not ask for a youtube video? Why would you ask someone on a video site.. to make a video on a completely other social media site that is ran by the chinese gov doing a psy ops lol.. bro they don't allow their own kids to use tiktok. But sure .. trust the CCP who is currently committing an actual genocide to respect your privacy etc
You can do incest in sims? Bro isn't that a kids game? Like if you want to create inbred loyal lines.. play crusader kings. Some people that play the game literally take it as a challenge to create the most inbred line possible. Which leads to hilarious sht. Like a mad king / emperor who's advisor is a horse, who secretly worships the devil, is in a fight with the pope and has a plot going on to assassinate his daughterwife because the son she gave birth to looks suspiciously not inbred.... can't have a harlot dirtying our royal blood!
These poor women who were married off to cousins and uncles and pressured to give birth to healthy male children despite the clear health complications in their family line... terrifying.
@Puzzoozoo Nah I didn't forget, I just never knew in the first place. I don't concern myself with any information about a modern "royal" family that's existed far beyond their welcome to steal money from everyone in the commonwealth 🤷🏼♀️
@Chloe You forget that Princess Diana here in Britain was the last virgin available to Charles to marry and procreate with, and after producing a heir, her job was done. Before you say what about Henry/Harry, I've always had a suspicion that Charles isn't his biological father, and James Hewitt is, but that is moot.
When I heard 13 year olds- I was sick to my stomach 💀🤢
Oh no won’t someone just think of the literal royalty who held tremendous privilege and power over the countless commoners who toiled beneath them 😢
@KZclipr okay go ahead and explain how it's not that deep 🤷🏾♀️ otherwise, thanks for the pointless reply I guess lol
You know it's bad when you have to list the _multiple_ familial relationships a husband and wife had before they ever married
@Xyza Cedeño I’m laughing so fucking hard about all the familial titles
yeah like imagine: the husband is the wife's uncle, brother, nephew, father, grandfather, great grandfather, granduncle (grandfather's brother) son, etc. the wife was- im too lazy so all the familial titles for the wife-
I can't help but cry for poor Charles. 38 years spent on this earth suffering, being made fun of, and having people trying to exorcise nonexistent demons from your body.
How he survived all he did I will never know.
Most of these portraits are in a mansion/museum in Glasgow. I found it really funny that as you walk through the house and see portraits down the family tree you could see the people, including babies, become uglier and uglier until you end on Charles II.
@Xiroi87 No there are a lot of original portraits of the Habsburgs in Pollok House in Glasgow. Charles II's face is not one you easily forget! I bet that these people had lots of portraits done in their lives and they are now dispersed in different museums.
Maybe copies as I've seen the originals of many of these at the Prado Museum
@Kimberly Old School No it's Pollok House, it's a bit far from the centre but really worth a visit! Kelvingrove is great too, I hope you got to see the Dali!
Are they in Kelvingrove? I visited there once but I don’t even think I got to see all of it.
While the Habsburgs no longer rule, I'd be curious to know how modern-day Habsburgs are fairing genetically. Do they still show signs of their family's past? Do they have to go through rigorous background checks before they get married? I wonder how prevalent those traits/defects/dispositions last.
Former king of Spain Felipe VI still descends from the hasburgs
After Maria Theresia married a Lothringen, the habsburger prognatism did not appear any more in the subsequent generations. That signifies that the bad gen inducing the prognatism syndrom has been eliminated. .Maria Theresia von Lothringen had numerous daughters married to the whole of royals througout Europe. and no desendant had the syndrome any more.All of the actual Habsburger are perfectly sane.
Some grandchildren of Otto of Habsburg, look him up, there are very interesting interviews with him, have an elongated face, but nothing like their ancestors
Elle DeZuttiPrognatism disapeared completely with Maria Theresia and her Lothringer Husband and did not reappear up to this day December 4th 2022 in her descendance.
I live in Austria,and yeah, what should I say,some chins are suspicious. xd
inbreeding aside, lets not forget that all of Charles reports of his sick health were made by foreign narrators who were trying to discedit him in favour of Louis XIV of France. He was sick alright, but he was also one of the longest reigning (and living) Spanish monarchs, and during his reign the economy improved and birthrates increased. He also put his feelings aside for the good of the country, and appointed Louis XIV's grandson as the heir to the Spanish throne to unite the kingdom, even though he was a relative of his biggest rival.
It was because of his mother, she was the queen regent. He was unable to rule or guide a country. He was not intelligent enough
“Scientist have crunched the numbers and it turns out the risk that first cousins have a kid who inherits a genetic disease is 4-7%. For the general population, it’s 3-4%.” That’s from a study from 2008. Can’t wait for part two. The Hapsburgs fascinate me. They’re a genetic train wreck.
@Lady_Sir_Knight Right... If first cousins get married and have kids... AND it's the first time, or the first time in many generations that's happened in that family.. Then they'll in most likelihood, be totally fine. Just don't do it again anytime soon. 😂
@Mia Moon I don't know, why would you want someone with a horrible genetic disease that will likely be passed down to your children?
@Wolfgang Kölber okay but why would you want your cousin or any relative when there are billions of other options?
@Emma Bennett Same, I have a genetic condition that’s dominant in nature luckily it’s not to bad and I have a normal life.
Yep. You could say their family tree is a wreath.
Pedro II, Emperor of Brazil was of Habsburg lineage too (His mother was from Habsburg-Lothringer line of austrian Habsburgs) Curiously, he was famous for his high intelect and very mild disposition, for an Emperor of his stature. He also didn't want the empire, aspiring to be a man of sciences and arts.. which was denied to him of course. He still had his voyages out there and racked some fun histories walking the worlds. He dilsiked pomp so much that he travelled without entourages and all... and people oft wondered who was that mild manered old man.. to just realize they were talking with an emperor like he was one of them.
Joanna the "mad" has always struck me as a desperately tragic story. As someone who has struggled with mental illnesses myself, I am well aware that I'm not stupid, just because I'm depressed, and that lack of sleep and loneliness are enough to drive anyone to some pretty wild things they would not normally do. She deserved so much better.
She didn't even seem particularly mentally ill, either, more abused and traumatized.
@Di :3 Do......do youbthink they could just LEAVE an abusive husband? She was DEPENDENT. ALL women were.
Juana, la Loca was actually brilliant and a critical thinker. She was beautiful and the people loved her. This wasn’t good for her parents and she was seen as crazy and a threat. I lived in Cifuentes, a small village a few hours east of Madrid and she was kept there a lot. She was caged and to stand there and hold the iron bars on the windows was incredibly sad. I went there frequently-they converted the one floor she had into a library. Juana loved to read. I was quite taken by her story and how she’d stand at those bars and the villagers would cheer for her. 💔 She was horribly abused by her mother growing up. It’s wild how she’s portrayed sometimes but having lived there and having a grandparent and relatives from Spain I kind of get it. I’m a left handed redhead “witch” to some of my family and people I knew in the village. 🤷🏽♀️
@Super Lad Also, how many kings killed children and/or people they knew were innocent of whatever crimes they used to justify murdering them? And all so that they were lusting after power?! Does anyone call Henry VIII psycho because he made up incest charges to execute Anne Boleyn? Or was Peter the Great mad because he executed his son and heir to the throne (because what is the point of surviving a conspiracy when your legitimate heir is the one who gets executed, and now your throne has to be left to a daughter who was born to your mistress)-and Peter was only tsar because his older brother was “unfit,” so why wasn’t “family history” used against him? European kings, including Juana’s sleazy daddy (and her sleazy mother), sponsored genocides, too. Come back with rock solid evidence that Juana murdered 2 children, and an a reasonable explanation for why none of the kings who murdered, raped, and sponsored genocides were less “mad” than Juana.
@Super Lad Show me documented proof that Juana, mother of 6 kings and queens, murdered 2 children. Better be rock solid evidence-book published by a university press and written by a PhD, or a scholarly journal article written by at least a grad student of a History Department.
What's interesting is that many peasants at the time were fully aware of the consequences that come from inbreeding, having learned them from breeding their horses and other farm animals.
poor baby Charles... brought tears to my eyes. none of the children deserved the conditions they had, but he got the unluckiest card. the fact that they didn't realize their inbreeding was causing the problems is staggering to me. bewitched or possessed, my ass.
Charles having almost every disease as a kid and living through all of them is like the "Task failed successfully" Meme. It's like his body should have in no way lived though even one of them but because the genes were so broken any virus or bacteria just couldn't kill him
"When Juana caught her husband cheating, she stabbed the woman in the face."Yep, that's a Spanish girl alright. 🤣
“Oh no you di’int!” *(removes hoop earrings)*
In my old biology book from high school, it pointed out that even though Charles Darwin knew that inbreeding was dangerous he also married his cousin. But when my teacher pointed it out in a lecture, I remember him getting so irritated about that part that he was all like “he’s a hypocrite sorry not sorry” 😂🤣
@Annie and Elsie of Arendelle marrying 3rd cousins is apparently the sweet spot for fertility. There was a study done on Icelandic population. There are less than 300000 inhabitants on Iceland, so a small and geographically fairly isolated population with good church records of marriages and births going back generations made Iceland an ideal research ground for scientists. It turns out that couples who were 3rd cousins had most children. They were far enough removed to be spared from problems associated with inbreeding but had just enough genetical similarity to make them extra compatible and thus extra fertile.
@Erica Kane not true. Jerry Lee Lewis married his first cousin once removed. Myra was Jerry Lee's first cousin J.W. Brown's daughter. Charles Darwin and his wife were first cousins. Their mothers were sisters. So Charles Darwin's marriage was more inbred than that of Jerry Lee and Myra.
@Christopher Salinas lol
@Shannon Suzanne everyone is your cousin
@Christopher Salinas stick to no cousins, no blood relations whatsoever 🤔
I always feel terrible for Charles II of Spain. From the reports, he probably had the best attitude of the Spanish kings. He loved his wife and did his best to keep the country's debt down instead of buying even more gold-covered furniture that he would end up staring at because there was so much in the palace. Would have been a cool dude. Had the worst parents/cousins/brothers/etc.
Darwin: Eureka! Inbreeding bad! Wedgewood: Amazing! Huxley: Insightful! Galton: This is evidence of our remarkable minds....Darwin: I agree...let's breed our families together to create a race of super humans! Wedgewood: I like this plan! Huxley: Our descendants shall be Gods! Galton: What could possibly go wrong?
I was watching another video on Chinese dynasties a while back, and someone pointed out that it's interesting that Chinese emperors didn't do the incest that European royalty did. And it makes sense, since Chinese emperors kept their families in power and avoided succession crises by having tons of kids with their big harem of wives and concubines. Plus the obsession with the family bloodline being "pure" wasn't there, so even common women could become part of the harem and potentially give birth to the next emperor. (Though this system thankfully avoided the incest problem...it did cause tons of drama, manipulation, and murders within the harem, because each wife/concubine wanted to be the favorite one and have her son be the next emperor.) Meanwhile, European royals were supposed to be monogamous, (though a lot of kings had mistresses and illegitimate kids) illegitimate kids weren't allowed on the throne, and there was the obsession with the "pure" bloodline. So the only way you could avoid a succession crisis with those rules was...incest. 🤢🤮
Europeans have always been “weird” lol.
Its wild how marrying cousins is also normal in the middle east. I remember having a girl or two in my school having physical problems due to her parents being cousins. My great grandparents were also cousins.
It's the culture, the same that Turkish tried to bring into the Balkans but Balkans already beeing christianized on a part went with the Christian of 5th knee is safe, go for 10th or furrher. My grandma can still name every family in our village and beyond lol
I'm from one of the country in Southeast-asia and marrying cousins is quite common, but the rule is "the _far_ the better". Its the 2nd or (preferably) 3rd cousins that allowed to be marrying each other. The rule supposed to be same for middle-east since we follow a lot social-norm from them.
many people assume charles II had mental disabilities because he also had physical ones. however, he actually possessed fairly good mental faculties, and actively participated in the governance of spain directly, trying to manage and mitigate its steady decline with some limited success. he was particularly invested in ensuring that, no matter who inherits his throne, that they inherit all of it, rather than see the realm divided. while he ultimately failed in that endeavour, as the war of the spanish succession after his death split spain's italian possessions from the mainland, he was still mentally fairly ok. the problem was his physical disabilities which left him vulnerable to illness, infertile and unable to take care of himself in certain basic tasks. nonetheless, he reportedly was able to hunt, and enjoyed doing so!
I feel horrible for juana's story. The fact she refused to bury her husband and would sleep next to his body is really sad, yet sweet.
By far the best video of the hapsburgh family tree (circle). Sk much easier to follow along with faces and can we just appreciate the fact that this lady is effortlessly explaining all this and u know it had to be crazy difficult just to research this topic and she is slaying it! Most importantly she makes it easy to understand...this lady is a wonderful conveyor of knowledge...
this on my recommended after the Dream face reveal 💀💀💀 FOUUUUL
I can't imagine how disfigured their stillborn babies were that they died upon birth. Even for the surviving children, how can their parents not be horrified seeing the physical results their offspring like Charles II?
For high infant mortality, one must consider poor hygiene, poor birth care, lack of any science when caring for children, frequent infections and on and on. But the in-breeding did play a high factor in the illness and death of the Habsburg families
@Ettina Kitten only that information in the video is completely wrong. We know the infant mortality rate at that time was much much worse. You'd be lucky 2 out of 12 survived to see adult hood in a village. The mortality rate for children in 1800 was already 50% before the age of 5. And this was wayy before the 19th century. The information in the video is purely made up.
The video takes that into account by comparing commoner infant mortality rates to Habsburg infant mortality rates. The commoners would likely have had worse infant care, and yet their infants had much better survival rates.
"Unusual union outside the Habsburg family" is a funny way of saying, they were both great-grandchildren of Ferdinand I. People like to ignore how connected the Bourbons actually are to the Habsburg.
I remember turning the corner in the Kunsthistorisches Museum in Vienna and seeing some of these portraits for the first time, and being absolutely terrified by what I saw. I was just going along, following the portraits and then BAM! Charles II of Spain. Holy crap! 😱😳 That is scary stuff. Thanks for the series 😁👍
I don’t know if it’s only me but i think that it was really stupid of the court and the nation to blame Marie Louise for not having a child when her husband Charles II was literally the proof of her inability in conceiving a child. It baffles me how even when the husband had many signs of weaknesses and not being able to perform in the bed, the wife was still the one to blame for it all.
It was a common occurrence to blame the woman for a lack of children- or specifically MALE children- in those times. Remember, the view of those times was that women were inherently sinful and therefore responsible for the lack of childbearing or having male heirs. Women were considered an inferior species for centuries in Europe (not helped by their interpretation of the Bible) and so treated them as such. Even today, women in many countries are treated as second class citizens as a rule.
LOL girs today throwing up these cheap feminism while using MISANDRY to justify every. And of course you have to look at the past. Bc now you have everything but still need to blame men (or “patriarchy”) for all you failures. This why women always fail: you can’t take responsibility FOR ANYTHING!
Sure they were aware of all modern science in those times! And obviously “they always blamed women oh the sexists”. As if a king that could not produce an heir would not be suffering all kinds of political and religious pressure. It was the males job to plant the seed. It was the womans body to the magic. Learn your history
Sexism baffles you??? Women are still seen as lesser than men today. There is no surprise.
Darwin actually made observations on the inbreeding of plants and it was only after marrying his cousin that he found that it was also applicable to humans
Really good video. Charles' list of recessive genes and variety of symptoms are incredibly wild and sad. I know this is going off topic, yet, the paintings done throughout the 300 plus years are amazing. The details with the lace is so ornate.
It's no wonder why Carlos II was called the Bewitched. He was so sickly, so misshapen, so afflicted, that it makes it little wonder why he was the last Spanish Habsburgs. With his death, the Spanish Habsburgs also died out, and after the War of Spanish Succession, the grandson of Louis XIV became King Philip V.
"charles darwin observed the dangers of inbreeding in his groundbreaking research ..... despite knowing better he chose to marry his first cousin"I snorted. His research was literally a DON'T PUSH ME button. Alas, he was too curious not to push it 💀💀💀
The craziest part is that the church already had rules on consanguity, which seemed to have been completely ignored by royals unless it was convenient to get rid of an unwanted spouse.
Carl Schmitt's "The exception to the rule" strikes again.
The church only cares about one thing, then and now, *MONEY*
@Chad Neu lmao
@Yeyo Silver religion is a creation of man so it's flawed just like human nature. religion is just a man made creation to control populations. what's more likely: there's a creator that cares about what we do, or humans created a religion to control eachother? I'm gonna go with the latter, the more likely one, which has been repeated thousands of times. You just happen to choose one to follow and believe THAT'S the one that got it right. It's crazy how people think "This one religion got it right!" even though it's continually had to change it's stance on issues. lol. If religion got it right then it would never have to change yet it's constantly evolving. It makes no sense.
The Catholic Monarchs very well knew that the Pope would have never given them permission to marry, so they had a letter from him giving said permission fabricated by a Spanish bishop.
Went up to an area in the Appalachians notorious for inbreeding, everybody up there looked very strange to me. My dad told me that instead of a family tree they have a family wreath lmao
In the state I’m from, Kentucky, we have a famous family here known for being so inbred they have blue skin
nah it it were vertical it would be a ladder-
family wreath 💀💀💀💀
I had mandibular prognathism. Got it from my great aunt. It was so bad I couldn’t properly chew my food, so I had to have corrective surgery where they broke my lower and upper jaw to bring them together. It was horribly painful and my mouth was wired shut for 6 months, but at least now I won’t wear out the lining of my stomach by age 40. (That was a legit worry of the doctor’s and the reason why my insurance eventually paid for what is normally considered cosmetic surgery. 🙄)
My grandparents were 1st cousins. Even in Cuba in the 1930's doctors warned them of the rissk. Their 1st child, ( my mother) has mental illness ( like my great grandfather).I have bad depression and decided not to have kids because of the risk.
It's very cool that you touched on biology and explained it very well. I like the variety in your videos and you are a very versatile and gifted story teller. I hope you do science and math related history videos some day. Female scientists and mathematician series maybe, please? 😎
On one hand the Habsburgs are rightfully stigmatized for this practice, but on the other hand they were the most successful late medieval royal family in Europe.
As someone with an advanced degree in genetics, I would politely say you got some of your facts wrong starting at 2:15 . Marriage between first cousins is very common in multiple parts of the world. Research shows children of 1st cousin marriage have a 6% chance for birth defects. The risk is not doubled as you state at 2:37. The problem with the Hapsburgs is multiple loops of relatedness over several generations. Towards the end of the family pedigree, Apparent first cousins were actually closer to the genetic relatedness of siblings because they were cousins so many times over. Instead of having eight great grandparents there may only have been two or three great grandparents between both husband and wife. Reproduction between people this closely related does often lead to the miscarriage rate and children with birth defects clearly seen in this family. Geneticists express the degree of relationship between two people as the coefficient of inbreeding. The greater the degree of relatedness the more trouble is seen with reproduction. But a true first cousin marriage is typically fine, unless there is a known recessive disease is running in the family. Taboo against first cousin marriage is common in Europe, yet these marriages are common in the billions of people found in Asia, Africa, and the Middle East. Also, Darwin’s work on evolution had absolutely nothing to do with identifying the dangers of inbreeding. And while the work of Gregor Mendel did outline dominant, recessive, and codominant patterns of inheritance, the pea plants he was working with did not show deficits when breed to close relatives so his work would not have applied to this theory either. Livestock breeders do not mate closely related animals mainly because a purebred of any type of livestock is by definition already inbred, which is why purebred animals have increased susceptibility to certain known diseases. When breeding any poodle to another poodle you are already dealing with closely related individuals and much more likely to have problems than if you are breeding a poodle to a beagle which are both dogs but much more genetically different. That being said I had never seen the Haspurb Pedegree presented the way it was in your video and thumbnail. It truly drives home the multiple loops of relatedness over several generations. With the entire family tracing back to about eight people it’s amazing the family did not collapse even earlier. Thanks for putting this research together, and your video is as well produced as ever.
An excellent comment that has given me a deeper understanding of genetics. I really enjoyed reading that Shelby. You are far further on than I was at college, I only did the basics and mainly the medical side as I was doing a host of exams to get into university, unfortunately I collapsed on my ward and was send for a colonoscopy only to find I had advanced Crohn's Disease, no one in my family ever had it. I went on to have three massive surgeries, one in Nov 2005 where I also lost my gall bladder and stones and again on the 11th September 2020 when I had removed and extensive part of my colon, I am still in recovery as it was a very big surgery where I contracted pneumonia twice and discovered I was severe allergic to the epidural and the drugs that went in it., also Non Alcoholic Cirrhosis of the liver, and enlarged spleen which I am on a special surveillance programme for, I have a 3.4 chance of developing liver cancer so a special eye is being kept on me. I also have something growing on my right lung which is down as an urgent request and not forgetting cataract surgery next Oct and likely knee replacements and likely a rod in my lower back due to extensive damage from a fall downstairs a month and half a go, add that to 7 cracked ribs, 4 on one side and 3 on the other, Diabetes Type 2, as you can tell I am medically retired from my nursing career, a huge disappointment as I went to work full time on all the wards through the nurse bank, passed all my exams at college only to be deprived of the only job I wanted to do and that was work in Theatre or A&E ( Emergency Room if you are not British?. A t huge disappointment and heartbreaking too after working so hard. I thought when I reached 40 20 years ago I would have time of my life, doing the job I loved, making new friends and meeting up for shopping and coffee, instead, almost 24 years later I have got worse and worse and now at risk of falls. life does'nt start at 40, 50 or 60, well not for me at least, And how did all this begin, no doctors know or ever will I expect. Just a case of putting a smile on my face and getting on with it and hope nothing else is added to the list. I was at too much risk going back, if a patient had something nasty it would have finished me off and they could'nt take that chance. was genetics involved, who knows, all my family members who were old are now dead, no one to ask?
I studied the Habsburgs as of part of my history major and still enjoy learning about this very strange family.
As a geneticist I have always been fascinated by the Habsburgs! Whilst watching this I did some research on the early Habsburgs that you might like to know, in short they were interbreeding from the start!Whilst you are right when you said Frederick III HRE and his son Maximilian are not related closely to their wives, it important to note all aristocracy/royalty is related somehow. Fredrick and Eleanor of Portugal are 4th Cousins 2x removed through the Carinthian/Bavarian lines, and Maximilian and his wife Mary of Burgundy were 2nd Cousins through John of Portugal and Phillipa of Lancaster. Mary’s own parents were a cousin marriage so consanguinity or interbreeding is rife from the start, albeit more distantly than it is later on. 😊
8:01 "The queen demanded that the funeral party travel only at night so that no women would see her dearly departed and be overwhelmed with desire for him." This is so bizarrely hilarious that you can almost ignore how deranged it is.
@Felsbrocken I read that in Stewie Griffin’s voice 😂, an English accent just makes it sound funnier in my head
@TheNightAl That’s the same vision I had! 🤣😭😂
With the tragic life she had plus how mental illness must've been treated back then, AND on top of that being a woman who's husband had cheated on her... yep, I can see the train wreck in real time :(
@Halloween All Year Round Ya think? lol
He was rotten or mummified by then (if his remains went through that procedure), only compounded mental illnesses plus a breakdown could have made her think that people wanted to bang her husband. No matter how "kingly", peasants had much more sense than royals, so they weren't gonna try to do that.
EXCELLENT RESEARCH!!! As a biology student, loved the well done information over hereditary and chromosomal abnormalities.🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
Honestly, the fact that this is part 1 answers the question well enough on its own.
I feel so guilty but when Charles was described it made my stomach turn. Idk why it made me feel like that...maybe bewilderment and pity to live such a sad life. It had to be so painful
My reaction to this video was the same that I have to watching horror movies. This is so scary, if anything even remotely like this happened today it would make the news a story of severe abuse.
For me when you say “they were second cousins” I say to myself “wow that’s distant for them, good on them for spreading the gene pool.”
Spit out my drink reading this. 🤣🤣
@Marty Ruth true, I just wanted to add the breakdown because that can help people do visualisation better :)
@I Dislike Miis I'm not trying to say it's ✨completely fine✨, and note me saying it would have no IMMEDIATE repercussions. yeah, second cousins still share some genetic material, and it'll stack up over time if you do this for several generations. obviously, it's preferable to not do incest at all, my argument was simply that in the realm of incest, second cousins are a very mild form of it.
@Marty Ruth actually, if you have to marry someone you are larelated to, it's best to marry later than the 5th generational link, so even if you don't know your great grandparents, it's still better to marry someone whom you share great-great-great grandparents with than any closer.This is because, in general, you half the amount of the gens that you share every step back, so:Gen 1 (siblings) : 50+(ofc not true, but you know)Gen 2 : 25Gen 3 : 12,5Gen 4 : 6,25Gen 5 : 3,12 (which is basically a stranger, so pretty safe)Gen 6 : 1,61 (Almost as far as you can get from anyone else in gens, so very safe)
to be fair, though, second cousins is genuinely barely related at all. siblings share parents. first cousins share grandparents. second cousins share GREAT GRANDPARENTS. can you name your great grandparents? all eight of them? i can't either! do you actually know your second cousins? i know like 2 of them, and I haven't seen the ones I know in about a decade because my distant family only comes together at funerals. while this might be my southerner talking, even in modern times, second cousins marrying isn't that big of a deal and definitely wouldn't have any immediate repercussions
During 150 years not a single person questioned that "maybe we are having these problems because of something we are doing"
Normal persons reaction to "Of their 7 children only 3 survived childhood" 'How tragic, Inbreeding is horrific"Crusader Kings 3 Players Reaction "Well this simplifies Inheritance so much, Thank god"
Poor little Charles II. It's amazing that he managed to live for 38 years despite all his illnesses.
This gave me a headache lol. Thanks for the explanation, I've been curious about the hapsburgs since I read about a certain SCP (in my opinion, the scariest SCP). Man I knew some royal families were inbred, but I didn't know it was this bad
If you trace up the family tree, you will see the pattern didn’t start from the Habsburg, but all the way back to the Jimenez Dynasty that ruled Spain eons ago. Inbreeding is not a Habsburg tradition, but Royal Spanish tradition, and the Habsburg are merely continuing it.
Jimenez dinasty? What are you talking about?
In my country, Vietnam, out of all the dynasties, the Trần (the most beloved one) practiced this. There were marriages between cousins, aunts and nephews and so on. It was because they had gained the throne by (forcingly) marrying the female ruler of the previous dynasty, the Lý. The Lý had also gained the throne that way (the first Lý ruler was husband of a Tiền Lê princess, not forcingly though) - the Tiền Lê dynasty relied on infighting sons, so the Lý and Trần tried to fix this by relying more on daughters and distant relatives who could be more loyal and act as a balance force. But the empowered princesses could bring troubles with marriages too...The Trần seemed to escape "problems" because the men had concubines, who might came from lower families. I guess the Ptolemys etc were the same. My impression is that inbreeding, while harmful in the long term, can produce capable figures in some cases, as craziness and genius are often two sides of the same coin. And dynasties who practiced this usually had the bright side that they provided females with chance to gain power.The Habsburgs had the same problems with female regents and decentralized polities...Charles V also had the luck that his bastard children were very talented.
I think this is the first time I've ever genuinely felt bad for someone who was a king. That must have been a rough life.
Actually the inbreeding started even earlier, although much less directly. Maximilian I. and Mary of Burgundy were actually related, because Maximilian's Mother (Eleanor of Portugal) was Mary's grandfather's (Phillip the Good's) niece. That might be the reason, why Philip I. had a higher than avarage inbreeding coefficient. So the spanish line kinda had no chance from the get go :'D
You can't tell me they didn't know anything about genetics if they had they never would have married their family but I guess years of inbreeding won out.
I love your videos so much! Would you ever consider doing a series about the borgias? They are so fascinating
Another great video! Would love to see this as a sub series, how inbred were the ptolemy or Japanese dynasties etc.
Look. I'm watching the Netflix special "Harry &Meghan". From the Hasburg persperspective, I think Harry broke the curse, and the sh*t they experienced was the Brit!spirit feeling it happen and its displeasure displayed through its plp. I KNOW you're watching that, and your opinion would be nice. I seriously regard Harry's home as the House of Diana. At this point in my life, I regard the Modern Brit!Royal Family as a Beatric Small"s edition.
So if you did have siblings with no genetic flaws,basically impossible i know,would that mean the bloodline would never encounter wild inbreeding mutations?
Nah because I think I learned something about during meiosis right after siblings fuck, similarities in the genetic codes between parents can fuck with the nucleotide order and can cause mutation. I think.
It’s crazy that not ONE of them woke up and realized “Marrying someone I’m literally related to is gross, let me marry someone else”
@Womandalorian btw nice pfp
That's a modern outlook on a very different time. Back then that was normal in royalty because marriages were arranged for diplomacy to gain, consolidate, and maintain power. In history remove your modern perspective if you want to understand it.
If you ever get married you will be marrying someone you are 'literally' related to 🙄
The Habsburgs got their wealth and power by inheriting lands through marriages, so it would be natural for them to be cautious.
They wanted to preserve the family dynasty, and.. what's worse, the few who *did* have such thoughts were often pressured into it by their family, or outright forced into arranged marriages.
Thank you so much for your flawless storytelling. All the portraits depicted here are so extraordinary! It is such a very rich documentary. I wonder the amount of time you have spent to build up all these intricate stories. That kind of documentary demands a lot of careful research. You are a surely gifted storyteller. Thank you for the quality of your documentaries. They are beyond fascinating!
Fascinating 🙂 thank you so much for this it truly pulls together other things I read back over 20+ years ago. A website titled..the mad monarchs comes to mind. Totally looking 4ward to the Bourbans ( spelling ? ) side of the story 🙂 your research is so thorough just love it 🙂
Thanks for this video! It was well-researched and fascinating all the way through. Tragic to think how much pain these people went through, both physically and psychologically, all for tradition. If they had just stopped marrying their cousins, they may not have lost so many children.
A lot of people dont think marrying a cousin is that terrible, but I read something years ago ago put it in a way that illustrated how bad it really is. It was pointed out that first cousins have the same genetic similarities/closeness as half-siblings.
I once read a joke that if Charles II of Spain (El Hechizado, literally “the bewitched/the cursed”) was any more inbred, he’d be a sandwich 😂
No wonder you got so many upvotes 😆
Thank you for this very interesting video. It is quite sad that so many of their children have died and suffered due to inbreeding.
Charles V and his wife Isabella's love story is one of my favorites. I just wanted to both recommend reading more on it, it's really touching, and also add that he didn't marry her for purely political reasons. When his family pushed for him to marry her, he actually refused. They met later on, like a year or so if I recall, and hit it off.Seriously though, the only mistress he's known to have had after marrying her was after her death, and only one. He often praised how she handled stuff when he was out, he wanted to be buried beside her, wore black for the rest of his life, etc. Makes one wonder if fairytale romances can happen in real life.
I have a book called Death of Kings by Clifford Brewer. A physiologist turned historian. The book uses modern medical knowledge to interpret the deaths of past monarchs of England. Argues very well that a major cause of multiple still births and miscarriages amongst royalty was anaemia. The diet of the nobility was very short of iron. Successive failed pregnancies depleted iron even more, making successive pregnancies even more likely to result in still births (to the point of definitely failing)and death of the mother. In many respects the diet of the peasantry was better than their aristocratic masters. Just that in times of famine/food shortages they could not obtain enough.
I have 3 double first cousins, who aren't actually double first cousins, but are the same level of related to me genetically as if they were. A DNA test pretty much shows us as half siblings, despite having different mothers and totally unrelated fathers. Thankfully I'm not married to any of them. Lol. This happened because my mom has an identical twin sister. Since identical twins are basically natural clones of each other , sharing pretty much exactly identical genes.. That set of cousins and I are as related as if we had the same mother. Despite physically being 2 different people, in 2 different bodies, our mothers being identical twins are the same person as far as genes are concerned... Shit gets confusing doesn't it? Lol
Damn Charles literally just kept on getting sick with everything that was deadly and still kept on living 💀
@Ally Williams Believe it or not first cousins marrying one another isn't... Really that big a deal. Sure there's an increased risk of issues... 100% even. However, it's a bit of a misnomer because the overall risk is still tiny. Doubling a small chance still makes it a small chance. It's when you do it over and over and over again through generations that it becomes a problem. That's why you got poor Charles here who had the inbreeding quotient of a sibling consummated child instead of the second cousins that his parents actually were.Not that I'm suggesting first cousins marry or anything but context is usually important. First cousins aren't anywhere close to sibling levels of incest.
He likely suffered incredibly seriously from each bout of illness, his whole life was also likely filled with absolute misery from said suffering so his soul probs was so relieved once he died my god
“How is Your Highness today?”Charles: *P A I N I S A L L*“What did he say?”“I think he said ‘Spain over all.’”
@Sally McCain he was in spain and also in spain but without the s
He must have been in a lot of pain.
Thank you for this very interesting and instructive discussion. This is the second time you have mentioned that Isabel physically abused Juana, and I do not recall reading anything about this. It was recorded that much later, during her captivity in Tordesillas, she may have been subjected to physical abuse but her mother would have been long gone by this time. Please supply the sources for this information as it makes a great difference, online, what is said about historical figures. In addition, there is also speculation that Juana was not nearly as unstable as was put forth, but that her reputation was shredded by the political forces around her. Please, the next time you discuss Juana, can you include this speculation as well as speculation about what disorders she may have suffered? Thank you.The stories about Juana and Philip's corpse are not true. She did not perform necrophiliac-adjacent acts. The coffin was opened three times: once during the All Saints Day; once when she was afraid the body had been stolen, and once more, likely for similar reasons. Her aim was to take Philip to Granada for burial, as was requested by Philip himself. She was stationed up in the northern area of Spain when Philip died, and Granada is south in Andalucia. In the event, political maneuverings stalled her, and then came the long imprisonment in Tordesillas, where Juana was under strict control and couldn't have done things with the body even if she had wanted to. I can't help but feel strongly about the perpetuation of these legends on this very commendable channel, and beg you to please include the other speculations in Juana's favor as well as the legends. Thank you.There are some interesting theories about why Charles was so strict about access and treatment of his mother, and some of them include the idea that, after all, she was competent and that this were proven, he would be at risk of losing power. As it was, she had to be acknowledged on documentation, and to the end of his reign, Charles had to be sure that Juana's name was included as co-ruler on all papers. (Incidentally, he is Charles V of the Holy Roman Empire, but Charles I of Spain).Technically, the Holy Roman Empire wasn't inherited; Charles had to buy his way into the position, though it was sort of a foregone conclusion that he'd get it.
Thank you! It's really disappointing that in supposedly historical and rigorous channels they bring out myths and rumors that have never been proven and perpetuate black propaganda. It is obnoxious and makes you doubt of all the content.
@John H Blaubach, EA These are really good and true points - in fact, the Castilians did revolt against Charles in 1520-21, and championed Juana. Charles ended up defeating them and this only strengthened his determination to keep his mother isolated.Townsend Miller, who wrote a dual biography of both Isabel and Juana, "Castles and the Crowns", said of Charles that "although he was later to call Spanish the language fit for addressing God, it was one he never bothered to master." Miller further speculates that many of Fernando's twisty maneuvers in the last years of his life were, indeed, to oust Charles from the Spanish inheritance and install little Fernando.
You brought some good points. Here is something else to consider. Recalling from junior high report on Charles, he was reared in Flanders and he grew learning German. His brother, Ferdinand grew up in Spain learning Spanish. Just the opposite education and grooming they needed! After Ferdinand II of Aragon died, Charles had to win the favor of both the Castilian and Aragonese nobility as it wasn't a foregone conclusion both kingdoms would remain united as they had only been "united" in the sense both monarchs of the respective kingdoms were married. Since he was perceived as a foreigner, upon inheriting both thrones, he needed Juana around for when issues in Castile mattered. However, had Philip I lived, he would have had to deal with the same issues. too. But Joanna - more than likely as his wife - would have been at his side, instead of locked up until royal documents required her signature.
@Antonina Bandrivska Thank you, Antonina, much appreciated! Agreed, anything pertaining to history on YT should be for opening up to further research, not necessarily for swallowing the story whole. (And the same goes for pretty much any other source....)
Thank you, I noticed that bit about Isabella abusing Juana as well. I recall that under Lindsay’s video about Juana there were comments from a Spanish historian stating that this is not true and Isabella loved her children dearly. Then I looked into sources that were listed under that video (some of them definitely would not be deemed trustworthy by teachers). In my small research of those sources I found the origin of the claim to be Wikipedia. There was citation of a book with letters which name I unfortunately forgot, maybe it is the one you are mentioning. However the page that was cited clearly talked about Juana’s imprisonment after her mother’s death, cannot remember exact year.I have made conclusion not to expect hard facts from KZclip videos , unless they are made by professional historians🤷♀️
Excellent work! It is surprising to learn that the same inbred family is still on the throne in France. On to Part 2! Thanks!
I can't stop imagining being the poor woman dragged in to marry a Hapsburg. Like this dude's probably drooling and wheezing and barely stands up on his own and you want me to make him an heir? You want more of them??
His first wife was terrified when she first saw him.
Thanks for the interesting video. The Habsburgs seemed to have a lot in common with Peggy Bundy (from "Married with Children"), the former Peggy Wanker, from Wanker County, where inbreeding was supposed to be rife. As Al said about Peggy's family, "Nothin' says lovin' like marryin' your cousin."
I had Habsburg jaw and have TSC, a genetic DNA complex (which causes a ton of stuff as well as TAND). The one sides jaw malformation (unilateral buccal -sided mandibular exostosis) turned out to be a boney tumor and cyst.
I remember being really into reincarnation for some reason in high school. I contacted some past lives "expert" (Brianstalin is the name). I included in the email the most recent picture of me at the time. He show me a picture of Infanta Isabella Clara Eugenia (Phillip II's daughter). I could have learned further, but I wasn't gonna give this dude any money and I wasn't a hardcore believer then or now. I was all for fun. What I did learn about Isabella was that she was Phillip's favorite and often helped him translate documents into Spanish. Isabella was an incredibly intelligent and educated woman for her time. She, like most of the Habsburgs, married a cousin - Archduke Albert VII. Unfortunately the three children they conceieved died very young. Probably due to the excessive inbreeding as we've learned. However, they seemed to have a pretty great marriage and ruled over the Spanish Netherlands, and were huge patron of the arts. She was pretty tight with painter Peter Paul Ruebens. Later in life and a decade after Albert's death, Isabella become Governess of the Spanish Netherlands and joined the Poor Clares. She died as a nun at the age of 67. So despite the tragedies, there was some happy stories. While I doubt past lives are a thing, at least I got to learn about a cool and underrated historical figure.
I've never seen any of your videos before this, but these long-form history deep-dives are my jam!
Charles II was either a medical miracle or had a seriously strong willpower to live through all that and make it to adulthood.
He was like Mr. Burns. He had so many ailments that they cancelled each other out.
Thanks for the tea!It's so tragic that literally EVERYONE ignores electress of Bavaria, Maria Antonia because she managed to survive into adulthood, to be known for her mild character and intelligence and even to produce several children, all that being even more inbred than her disgusting uncle. I do hope that you mention her in your next video because she definitely deserves to be remembered, not only as an heiress to the Spanish throne but also as a victim of her ancestors' mistakes
Don't know about the use of the word "tragic" being used in this context, but it seems that her health and intellect is certainly an interesting departure from the curse of incest ....hmmm - perhaps there was a bit of hanky-panky going on with her mum...?? Wouldn't be the first time. This is why adultery is always considered a very bad thing, morally and common-sense wise, because if dad or mum had extra-marital relations around the neighborhood then further off-spring could wind up marrying their half-brother or half sister. .
She'll probably talk about her in the next part - the Austrian line since this is only the spanish line
Very interesting series. Looking forward to the next installment! 👩🏾🎓
I just adore you and your channel. I love this part of history + discovered you from your awesome old Halloween music, cause Halloween meets history rules!Morticia
I can only say WOW to all your hard work and this crazy family, thankyou so much i thoroughly enjoyed watching this, cant wait to see more /
Oh! I found something interesting with this side of the family: there was one prior marriage between the Habsburgs and the house of Aragon. It was between Philip the Handsome’s younger sister Margaret and Juan, Prince of Austrias (Juana’s older brother). This marriage did not result in living children. They had a premature daughter who didn’t live long, and whose father died before she did. Margaret ended up staying in the Spanish court once her brother married Juana, and even helped raise her nieces and nephews.
I find it incredibly amusing that a brilliant scientist like Darwin, who knew better than anyone about the dangers, still said "to hell with it, imma marry my cousin"
I had always heard of Carlos II as a sad figure but I didn't realize how rough he had it - I don't think the accounts are 100% factual as they were written by foreigners with an agenda but I think it's safe to say he went through life in a significant amount of pain through no fault of his own.
There is a series of books on an alternate history line, called collectively "The Ring of Fire" It was started by author Eric Flint and details what happens when a whole town in 'west 'virginia is transported in time and place to central 'europe during the middle of the Thirty Years War. Hapsburgs get a lot of mention, including the proposed union of Maximilian of Bavaria and his neice Maria Anna, that in our time actually did happen. In the books she ends up marrying a Hapsburg cousin, the younger brother of Phillip iv of Spain, and that union starts a third Hapsburg dynasty; those folks have a complicated family tree.
I knew there was a lot of incest among the royal families but I didn't know the effects many of them experienced because of inbreeding. This was very interesting to learn about. Definitely going to watch part 2 to learn more. 😁
"He baffled his physicians by continuing to live" That's definitely an understatement.😖
I'm sure people knew- or at least suspected that inbreeding was bad...but keeping the wealth was more important than health or your children dying. Humans were, are and always be the worst...
WOW. I've heard about The Habsburgs and their history of inbreeding. But I didn't realize how insidious the situation was!
It's crazy that the concept and results of inbreeding were understood in terms of farming and agriculture but the Hapsburgs didn't have a clue. Seems they were already short of a few nuts and bolts before cousins/nieces/uncles started the whole shebang.